Decent Men in Indecent Times: Rape, Sex & Locker Room Talk

Harvey Two-Face Dent in The Dark Knight

(Image/Warner Bros.)

Not long before my high school graduation, one of my friends said another one of my friends raped her.

No witnesses.

A classic case of He Said, She Said.

Half of my classmates were at an off-site retreat. I was one of the student leaders, which was as much of a surprise to me as it might be to you.

In my first and only God’s-honest attempt at self-improvement and public vulnerability in an effort to help others before writing here, my two friends — let’s call them Joe and Sally — decided to make out in one of the retreat center’s private dorm rooms during a break between speakers.

In the middle of the next speaker’s talk, ANOTHER one of my friends assaulted the boy, in what seemed to everyone in the room like a bizarrely unprovoked attack. Chairs fell. Profanity was spoken. Students shrieked.

Some of the guys restrained the attacker. This was a scene none of us small-town, small-school Ohioans had experienced before. Padded hits at football practice and occasionally aggressive shoving during playground basketball games was about as violent as it got.

Word quickly spread as it does among high schoolers: “Sally says Joe raped her.”

I think maybe I didn’t want to deal with being the kind of person who could be friends with a rapist.

What do you even say to something like that? When I was a freshman, one of the sophomore boys was hit in the head with a golf club by some kid from another school. That other kid was convicted of felonious assault. And that was my first and only experience with felony crime until now.

Rape. Jesus. Rape.

On the Horrible Things You Can Do To People List, I always figured that was #2 behind murder.

And now, one of my buddies was being accused of doing THAT. We weren’t lifelong best friends or anything, but Joe and I spent a fair amount of time together outside of school our senior year.

He was nice, you know? Like me. One of our best basketball players. I’d never heard anyone say anything bad about him, never experienced anything bad with him, and didn’t know anyone who didn’t like him.

But now this.

Rape. Did he or didn’t he?

No one wants to pick sides, but I think everyone did.

He was kicked out of school and spent a month or so in jail. He’s probably a registered sex offender. I’ve never looked.

I only saw him once after that.

I stopped by his house after he got out of jail. I never knew anyone who had ever been in jail before. I sat on a porch swing with him on the back patio, smoking Marlboro Lights, and checking in on him.

He said it was consensual. That he didn’t know why she would do that to him.

Sally ended up going to the same university as me, and even ended up in the same residence hall our freshman year. I was always polite when we’d cross paths, but I never made any attempts to include her in my social circle.

I think, if I’m being honest with myself, I wanted to believe Joe more than I wanted to believe Sally. I think I wanted to preserve my emotional attachment to my friend. I think maybe I didn’t want to deal with being the kind of person who could be friends with a rapist.

I think, if I’m being honest with myself, had Bill Cosby only ever had one accuser, I’d have done the same thing with him.

I think, if I’m being honest with myself, I’ve been an unwitting participant in Rape Culture, a term I’ve only recently come to understand.

To be clear, I have no idea what happened that afternoon back on my high school retreat. But I think it’s safe to say that, in the moment, I leaned on the side of victim-blaming someone I also knew to be a decent person.

I think I believed at the time that she said Yes before saying No. So maybe that meant it wasn’t really rape.

I wish I hadn’t thought that.

The Locker Room Talk

U.S. presidential candidate Donald Trump came under fire last weekend after a recording of an 11-year-old conversation circulated globally. On the recording, Trump could be heard saying fairly vile shit about how he treats women he desires sexually, and how he can get away with it because of who he is.

He apologized for the language, describing the exchange as “locker room talk,” which I think he meant as: “Boys will be boys, you know? In private, we talk about sex like this. It’s not like REAL LIFE or anything. I don’t ACTUALLY sexually assault people, so it’s cool. Let’s talk about something else.”

I don’t know what other guys discuss in other places. I only know what I’ve said and heard.

And to be sure, I have heard, probably said, and certainly laughed at, HORRIBLE sexually explicit comments made about women — strangers or the wife/girlfriend of someone I knew.

Comments that would almost certainly be considered demeaning and offensive to the human being talked about, or which confirmed that the person to whom I was speaking, cheated on his partner and/or suggested the desire to.

Comments about her ass. Her chest. Her lips. Her face. Her flexibility. Her technique. Her whatever.

Sometimes “good,” as in they are desirable. Sometimes “bad,” as in they are not.

Pretty much everyone in my general age range has heard the lines, I suspect.

“Did you see her ass? Do you have any idea what I would do to that?”

“Did you see the tits on her? I want to put my face between them.”

“Oh man, did you see that butter face? Great body, though. Think she’d let me put a bag over her head?”

Or, maybe just some TMI commentary from one of the guys about what he allegedly did with whoever. Maybe some of it is true.

It’s pretty gross. It is. And it happens every day, all the time, with men of all ages, from the locker room to the corporate boardroom.

It’s common. And “common” things can sometimes make us feel as if they’re “okay” or “normal” like that one time when white people systematically enslaved people with different color skin, and it was somehow debated like an everyday political issue.

Because something is common does not necessarily make it okay.

Does the prevelance of lewd sexual banter exacerbate rape culture? To what extent has men’s collective silence contributed to the problem?

Thought of the Day

If Muslims of Middle Eastern descent “deserve” squinty-eyed suspicion and discrimination because most terrorists are members of that group, do Men, in turn, deserve squinty-eyed suspicion and discrimination because most rapists are men?

Expectant fathers sometimes actively root for their pregnant wives to have boys. It’s NOT just because they love the idea of playing catch with them in the back yard. It’s because of the old adage: “With boys, you only have to worry about one penis. But with a girl, you have to worry about EVERY penis.”

When she — whoever “she” may be — is just some theoretical piece-of-ass fantasy, men who engage in “locker room talk” will engage in locker room talk. But when that human being is someone they KNOW, everything changes dramatically.

Whether it’s a wife, girlfriend, daughter, mother, sister, cousin, friend — whatever. “C’mon guys. Don’t talk about my [Insert Person Who Matters Here] that way.”

And that’s pretty much always respected and honored in a Bro Code sort-of way, OR it’s said in a circle of such close friends that the biggest clown in the group can get away with ruthless jokes at the requestor’s loved-one’s expense, and everyone will laugh about it because “it’s just a funny joke.”

I don’t know that any of that is somehow defensible.

I just know that’s how it is sometimes when you’re “out with the guys” in the world I experience. It happens infinitely less as a father in my 30s than it did as a younger guy, for whatever that’s worth.

I can only assume this is an unwelcome and unpleasant component of Common Guy Behavior for many people, and something that could fairly be accused of contributing to rape culture.

But I wanted to make one thing abundantly clear: I have, not one time, seen or heard one of my friends or even just some dude I kind-of know say ANYTHING, EVER that wasn’t within the context of consensual sex.

It’s not okay to describe behavior consistent with gross sexual imposition or sexual assault, and chalk it up to “Boys will be boys!”

Want to know how big of a Shit-fuck McGee someone you know is? Just ask them about this.

“Do you think rapey comments and jokes, even in a locker-room setting are normal and/or funny?”

Anything other than “No” = Total Shit-fuck McGee. Sorry, but it’s true.

Even the biggest assholes I know and love don’t speak that way. Not in locker rooms. Not anywhere.

Do Wives Owe Their Husbands Sex?

If a man with a higher sex drive than his wife gets married, and then his wife denies him sex, is there ever a point where it becomes “acceptable,” or maybe just “understandable,” if he has an affair?

I have strong opinions about people who feel entitled to sex. That includes husbands and boyfriends who feel entitled to sexual gratification from their partners. That they’re “owed” it, somehow.

I’ll look forward to talking about it with you in the next post.

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52 thoughts on “Decent Men in Indecent Times: Rape, Sex & Locker Room Talk

  1. Tina says:

    Oi Matt – way to charge in where angels fear to tread. As one of the “one in four” statistical “winners” I can tell you rape or “rapey” or “rapeish” comments are never ever funny to me and always make me think less of the people delivering them, laughing at, or agreeing with, or encouraging them, AND the people hearing them without speaking up.

    Liked by 8 people

    • Marion says:

      Thanks to both of you, for being sane when the world has clearly lost its mind. When you said where angels fear to tread, that’s what I’m feeling. I feel like I’m looked at as controversial on social media because I push back when people post women can’t be outraged after buying so many copies of 50 Shades. Really? Besides looking in the mirror, take a logic class. And so many good people are staying silent. Why? Because the conversation has gotten so heated? I don’t understand. I have to speak up because if I had been assaulted I don’t think I could.

      Liked by 3 people

      • Matt says:

        Ohhh. Neat. I hadn’t heard that one yet.

        Do women who read Fifty Shades “have it coming”?

        Are people who shot police officers playing Grand Theft Auto not allowed to be outraged by police murders?

        Good grief.

        Thanks for the note, Marion.

        Like

  2. Thank you, Matt! That is such an important distinction. It’s one thing for “locker room talk” to discuss women sexually (not good, but reality); it’s something else all together to act like sexual assault is okay, even if it is “just talk.” And I suspect most men, like yourself, have never heard such talk of grabbing someone against their will in locker rooms.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Matt says:

      Thank you.

      There are layers here, and probably poorly written as I wasn’t able to give it the attention this topic deserves.

      Layer #1 – Anything rapey is always bad and unacceptable, behaviorally and/or spoken, and that shouldn’t even have to be said.

      Layer #2 – Guys in groups, as I remember being part of in my youth, and as I occasionally overhear when I’m out and about today (as I did sitting at breakfast this past weekend), engage in “guy talk” that they keep in check in front of their grandparents and church pastors and girlfriends. It’s not awesome, but it is also NOT rapey. Not intentionally, anyway.

      Layer #3 – Could one of the reasons rape and sexual assault are as prevalent as they are because boys from the age of 13 or whatever are hearing and saying these things in a way that doesn’t “feel” wrong. And as incrementalism is wont to do, desensitizes some of these guys to the horrors rape victims feel.

      I don’t know.

      I just don’t want to be part of the problem.

      I will write with more convinction about men who EXPECT sexual gratification on-demand in the next post.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Not sure we’re going to be able to change Layer #2, but sadly yes, it leads to Layer #3. That, perhaps, we can combat with more information about how men and women are supposed to relate, and exposing boys to that info at a younger age. And perhaps some sensitivity training in which the boys experience the shoe on the other foot. Not sure what the answers are, but at least we are now asking these questions!

        Liked by 1 person

  3. zombiedrew2 says:

    Good post, though that last section seems to have come out of nowhere.

    For me growing up, yeah guys will make (sexual) remarks like you’ve mentioned about women, but they were usually things more in line with a crude (and sexual) appreciation of the female body then any thing else.

    In grade 11 I remember a moment where a girl in the class walked in wearing an outfit that didn’t leave much to the imagination, and two of the guys behind me made some sort of a “pro-rape” comment that left me feeling pretty sickened and unsettled. So I really don’t think that is all that common – but I guess it depends on the circles you run in.

    In many years of organized sports, I’ve been around a bunch of guys who are all to happy to discuss their sexual exploits, and I’ve never been overly comfortable with that. But really, even in those circles those guys are in the minority.

    As for your last section…

    Do wives (or husbands) owe their partners sex? Man, that’s a loaded topic. I will say, when people get married they are likely expecting sex to be part of the equation, and I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Monogamy and celibacy are two VERY different things.

    There will always be gaps in sex drive, and often those gaps are the source of relationship problems. Really though, in my mind it’s just one of the many gaps in needs that a couple has to negotiate.

    I will say that if the lower drive person expects that sex will only happen when they feel like it, that is JUST as selfish as the higher drive person expecting sex whenever they want it.

    The couple needs to find a middle ground. Which likely means one person having sex less than they would like, while the other person has to have sex more than they want sometimes.

    If the couple can’t find a way to make this work, I would NEVER condone an affair. But I will say I think an inability to find a middle ground on sexual issues is a very valid reason for ending a relationship. It’s an unfortunate one, but sex is about so much more than sex. It’s about sharing, it’s about vulnerability, and it’s a form of communication.

    If one person is denying that in the relationship, then I suspect the relationship has deeper issues than just sex.

    Like

  4. linds01 says:

    I think any “guy talk” that involves womens anatomy objectifies women, and does contribute to rape culture. The men speaking don’t have to even be vulgar- it’s the reduction of women to body parts that makes us less of a person.

    Liked by 3 people

  5. bee says:

    As a woman who’s been groped, assaulted, and cheated on (while maintaining the higher sex drive) this piece is…wow. I’m interested in seeing what you do with it. As for rape culture, I had the “honor” of over-hearing a group of boys I know discuss how a certain girl needs to be raped. It was disgusting. And yes, I informed their coach and parents. There’s no excuse for that kind of talk.

    Like

  6. Thanks for taking on a subject (sexual assault) that isn’t easy to talk about, Matt. I applaud you.

    Like

  7. gottmanfan says:

    Matt,

    I really appreciate your vulnerability and honesty in this post! Let me add a few “go where angels fear to tread” thoughts of my own. I am not referring to you here Matt just generally speaking.

    1. I’m always surprised when so many men say they have never heard men in locker rooms say things that approach sexual assault. I’m surprised because I myself have overheard men saying things that while not as crudely put as Trumps, definitely were hazy on the concept of consent. “Good” men in office settings or nice parties or sports events.

    2. Of course there’s the classic “good man” move of dissecting a woman as a piece of meat. Her breasts, legs, ass, mouth rated for his enjoyment. Always such a fun game for boys to play! Don’t want to spoil the fun by saying “don’t talk that way about a woman”. After all it’s just kidding around. We know not to talk that way with mom or grandma.

    2. But aside from those more obvious examples, perhaps many men have a more literal view of what constitutes over the line speech. And that creates the continual disrespect for women. Women are perceived as “emotional” not logical. Fickle, always changing their minds. Controlled by their hormones.

    3. Really what man wouldn’t joke CONTINUALLY about such a creature and how they can’t be trusted to say what they really mean. And that also contributes to this problem of not treating women with respect. So easy to dismiss anything she says and override her stated opinions/views/wants/preferences/needs as something you can or even SHOULD ignore because men are just more logical and their opinions/views/wants/preferences/needs are just more trustworthy.

    4. Really you’re doing a good thing when you ignore her OVERT statements/requests. It’s your function as a man to “help” her not be ruled by her crazy emotions and hormones. Its you duty to perform this service to her even if she doesn’t understand that.

    5. And here we get to the underlying reason that contributes to why so many good men who would never talk about grabbing a woman’s pussy do contribute to the problem of undermining the need to talk respected to and about women.

    6. This “I can and should override what that crazy emotional woman just said to me” feeds into the problem of ignoring CONSENT.

    7. I’ve heard many, many good men talk in nice ways about this. Ignoring her disinterest/rejection of you. Keep coming back and trying. After all you’re a “nice guy. She “should” want you. She’s just confused. You can “make her” want you. She’s playing hard to get etc. She’s so emotional and can’t really like that “bad boy”.

    8. Yeah this is a HUGE reason why men just ignore their wives telling them they are unhappy in their marriages. “Oh she’s always bitching about something, must be on the rag”. “She can’t really care that much about dishes, she’s just emotional all the time.”

    9. And THIS not giving women’s stated positions the same respect as men’s in one major reason why I would chose RESPECT over safety or love or empathy.

    10. You need to be treated with respect and believed for what you say as a foundation for anything else. If you are respected it is hard to treat you as a piece of meat.

    Like

    • linds01 says:

      And I was just going to say it is, and contributes to sexism,too- but Lisa I think you did a much better job of “nailing it”…
      ;)

      Like

    • Donkey says:

      “Of course there’s the classic “good man” move of dissecting a woman as a piece of meat. Her breasts, legs, ass, mouth rated for his enjoyment. Always such a fun game for boys to play! Don’t want to spoil the fun by saying “don’t talk that way about a woman”. After all it’s just kidding around. ”

      Yes! It’s dehumanizing, like women are less than a person as Lindsey said. I read somewhere that it contributes to men internalizing that women should be treated as sex objects, and women internalize it too and start dehumanizing themselves, and it wrecks havoc on women’s self esteem.

      “2. But aside from those more obvious examples, perhaps many men have a more literal view of what constitutes over the line speech. And that creates the continual disrespect for women.”

      I’m not completely following you Gottmanfan (though I’m guessing I’m on board). How do you mean a more literal view of what’s over the line? Seems to me that lots of things are just excused as “just guy talk” etc.

      Thank you Matt, for this post.

      Like

      • gottmanfan says:

        I mean that it seems to me that it has to sound like “I grabbed her pussy” for many men to think that “locker room talk” is about consent.

        I am saying that the way that men so often make jokes or comments about women being irrational and controlled by their emotions or hormones is also inappropriately “over the line” and contributes to “rape culture” and just generally disrespecting women as being not worthy of being taken at face value.

        No doesn’t mean maybe. Accusations of rape should be taken seriously and not assumed to be a lie or a misunderstanding.

        Being hurt about the dishes should be taken literally and considered accordingly too.

        This view of women as not worthy of respect either physically or in her word being trustworthy is WRONG and dehumanizing.

        A woman should be respected as a human capable of equal consideration.

        Like

        • gottmanfan says:

          In my view, everyone should speak up when women are being disrespected. Men especially have the opportunity to make real cultural charge by speaking up when women are being disrespected

          In obvious “pussy grabbing” ways.

          In objectifying ways of reducing women to body parts for men’s pleasure.

          AND

          In the numerous ways women are disrespected with jokes or comments about her illogical, overly emotional, hormonal inability to be believed or taken seriously.

          “He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.”

          Martin Luther King Jr.

          Like

  8. SapphireYagami says:

    if a husband has a higher sex drive and the wife is just not in the mood at the moment, then she can just give him a raincheck but if she is constantly saying no- then 1. there is an underlying issue or 2. she needs to i guess the term would be starfish sex

    as for the rape stuff, its bad when it comes to a he said, she said situation cause we dont know who’s telling the truth and if its true then the person needs to be punish and if the accusation is false then you have just ruined someone’s life and accusing someone of rape should be taken seriously.

    as for the 50 shades of grey situation that in itself is a whole another can of worms. granted i haven’t read the books but Christian Greys character really should be something women admire. Yes, he does have some alpha traits but overall to me is possessive and slightly abusive. They have sex before she actually signs the contract which in the film they have sex twice before she ever signs it and not only that he constantly pops up whereever she is and when she says basically goodbye he keeps sending her freaking messages – no offensive that not sexy thats is a sign of crazy,abusive man and women should stay far away from a man like that.

    Like

    • Matt says:

      [runs off to Google “starfish sex”]

      Liked by 3 people

      • SapphireYagami says:

        its when a woman just lays there, no showing any enthusiasm or excitement having sex with her partner

        Liked by 2 people

      • Jeff Strand says:

        “its when a woman just lays there, no showing any enthusiasm or excitement having sex with her partner”

        Also known as: lie back and think of England. Or, “just lay there and take it”.

        Which actually, can be quite a turn-on to the guy…in his role as initiator and aggressor, and she in the role of passive receiver. A classic alpha male move. And often ends up with the woman really getting into it and all of a sudden finding herself really turned on – because her feminine nature is responding to his dominance over her during the sex act. Especially if the the husband emphasizes this by whispering “just lay there and take it” into her ear, repeatedly during the marital act.

        If some of you married couples haven’t tried this when the wife isn’t so much in the mood, you should give it a try. Don’t be shocked to see the wife actually thanking the husband afterwards, for giving her a good pounding…when she wasn’t even in the mood before they got busy! More keys to a happy marriage.

        Like

        • Travis B. says:

          Matt,

          If anything you’ve ever written is to ever mean anything, if MBTTTR is to ever matter at all, if I can ever hope to continue calling you friend, confident, mentor and brother, YOU MUST SHUT THIS DOWN. YOU MUST SHUT HIM DOWN. THIS MUST, MUST, MUST END. PERMANENTLY.

          Liked by 2 people

        • gottmanfan says:

          This comment is close to endorsing marital rape. “Just lay there are take it” whispered repeatedly. No mention of consent.

          Is that ok with you Matt?

          Like

          • Jeff Strand says:

            Gott, lol at the dramatics.

            No, it’s not “marital rape” (which didn’t even exist until 20 or 30 years ago). It’s a husband and wife connecting sexually in a way that benefits both of them, and strengthens their marriage.

            Not your cup of tea? Fine, take a pass on it. Different strokes for different folks.

            Like

    • Matt says:

      I’m all caught up now on the starfish reference.

      I am going to (in what I hope feels polite and respectful) disagree with the starfish thing here.

      You’re first point, that there’s an underlying issue, is obviously the problem.

      I’m going to follow up on this, hopefully Friday. :)

      Liked by 1 person

  9. Anne says:

    You finally blocked him, Matt, didn’t you?

    Liked by 1 person

  10. ls says:

    I’m going to go out on a limb and say that the overly disparaging talk isn’t sexual at all but, like rape, about domination or an expression of an unhealthy form of masculinity. Women could and sometimes do convey purely sexual thoughts about a man in a vulgar manner, but it usually doesn’t denigrate the man as a human being. It might objectify him, but it rarely implies the lack of consent or violence or inherent disrespect that so much male talk conveys.

    Liked by 1 person

  11. In break rooms in every unit of every hosital I’ve worked in for nearly a quarter century, it’s been nearly impossible to avoid co-workers talking about their sex lives. Bragging about last night’s activity, the partners’ physical endowmemts and amratin

    Like

  12. ttravis says:

    At some point Saturday I thought, “if my head doesn’t explode in the next 24 hours, it sure will be interesting to see what Matt has to say about all this next week.” Turns out I needn’t have wondered, b/c we were thinking THE EXACT SAME THINGS.

    http://www.gainesville.com/opinion/20161011/trysh-travis-what-trump-can-teach-us-about-rape-culture

    Liked by 3 people

    • Matt says:

      Whoa. Just read.

      [*opens Life Goals notebook and puts check mark next to Think Like Doctor Once*]

      Nice piece in the Sun.

      This:
      “When your default is that women are things, rape becomes easy. Because it’s not a crime against a person.”

      Money is not the root of all evil.

      The root of all evil is: A Person is a Thing.

      I cringe when people refer to a baby as an “it.”

      People ARE NOT things.

      Thank you for writing it (and for sharing your article here).

      Liked by 1 person

    • Awesome article, ttravis!! Thank you for some very clearly stated points. I will be repeating them to my male relatives and friends in the days to come, I am sure.

      P.S. I’m in Gainesville also; used to teach at Santa Fe. Now I write mysteries. :)

      Liked by 1 person

  13. Autumn Grayson says:

    People don’t feel like things are bad most of the time if they have good intentions/aren’t setting out to hurt someone.  I don’t think everyone who has engaged in locker room talk is a bad person, but I think in some cases it can contribute to rape culture a bit.  Many guys know it is wrong or will at least get them in trouble, judging by the way they hide such talk from those who’ll care.  They know that many women would not accept being spoken of in such a way, but they will still speak of and fantasize about those women against their will.  Unfortunately, some of that goes out of the locker room and into every day life.  Maybe it doesn’t automatically translate into rape, but many guys that weren’t taught to respect women and are mainly just around guys who engage in locker room talk are probably more likely to engage in some form of sexual harassment.  It could be making inappropriate comments to a girl as she walks out of a restaurant, or groping a girl that doesn’t want to be groped.  Guys raised mostly with locker room talk are more likely to respond to a girl’s anger with mockery.  ‘come on girl, it was just a joke.’ or ‘take it as a compliment!’

    Obviously that isn’t how every guy that engages in locker room talk acts, but I think that’s a possible symptom when men are raised in a mostly locker room talk environment.  

    When I was in highschool, I took a leather working class.  My sister and I were the only two girls in the class.  A guy a year or two younger than me started to flirt with me.  It was immediately obvious that he knew I disliked it.  He kept on, all throughout the time I was taking the class, and the flirting and ways he apparently talked about me to others were getting rather inappropriate.  We were in a class setting and under supervision of the teacher, and the kid never tried to touch me, so I just started ignoring him, even though he angered me.  The teacher(a guy). Told him to stop several times, but he kept on.  

    It may have been locker room talk, but he was directly violating my wishes.  He was obviously treating me as a bit of a mind toy, and even though I was not intimidated by him in this setting, I would not have trusted or wanted to be around him ever again if I could help it.  Locker room talk is often secretive and against the girl’s will.  So is rape.  One may not directly indicate the ability for the other, but maybe it isn’t good for guys to get used to thinking of girls in a sexual manner against the girl’s will.

    Even if that wasn’t the case, I know that  if I was walking out of a building and a guy started making inappropriate comments toward me, I know that it could be simple locker room talk, or it could be an indication that he is planning to become a problem for me.  It is often impossible to know which in the moment.  So I, as a girl, probably couldn’t help but find it a bit threatening in that setting.

    Liked by 2 people

  14. Next time I overhear men dissecting a woman’s body, I will stop and ask them how they would feel if someone talked that way about their daughter, mother, sister.

    Like

    • Jeff Strand says:

      Really? I’ve heard women make the same kind of comments about male bodies. I wonder how they’d react if I interrupted them and asked them to imagine that was their dad they were talking about…

      Like

      • Autumn Grayson says:

        Nobody should just be going around ‘dissecting’ others and objectifying them. It doesn’t matter if they are a guy or a girl.

        Like

  15. Jeff Strand says:

    Interesting post, Matt.

    Two things. First, just because Sally accused Joe of raping her doesn’t mean he really did. I have personally had a girl threaten me with a formal accusation of rape, merely because I politely informed her I did not see a relationship between us going forward. The sex we had had been more than consensual on her part, but I guess in her mind this implied that I was on the hook to be her boyfriend. And when she saw that I had no interest in dating her going forward, she felt “used” or something. I guess, I’m not a shrink. But the point is these things happen more often than you’d think (just like false accusations of DV). I would need to see other evidence besides just Sally’s word to believe that a rape happened.

    Second thing: Trump’s actual words on the tape. It’s funny to see how much that tape is being misinterpreted. Trump wasn’t saying he walks up to women and grabs them by their privates. What he was actually doing was taking a shot at these shallow women, who only care about fame and material success, who throw themselves at a rich celebrity like Trump. He said (paraphrasing from memory): “these women throw themselves at you if you’re a star. You can do anything – they just let you. You can grab them by the pu–y”.

    See? He wasn’t saying that necessarily he had any desire to grab them by the cootchie – just that these women are such gold diggers that they would let him do so if he wanted to (because he’s rich and a celebrity). And even then, he didn’t mean LITERALLY grab them by the privates – he was making an exaggeration, using hyperbole. The words I would have used, instead of “they will let you grab them by the pu–y” would have been “they will let you do things to them that you wouldn’t do to a barnyard animal”.

    So the media has given his words a meaning that Trump never intended. And they did this on purpose, because they are in the tank for Hillary and saw a chance to smear the man. It’s disgusting.

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    • Donkey says:

      No that’s not what he said. Listen to the tape again.

      He talks about how he doesn’t even think, he just starts kissing women he finds beautiful (and so he should eat tick tacks first). And then he talks about how when you’re a star, they let you do anything, grab them by the p*ssy etc.

      Yeah, I would be scared as shit to report Trump if he did anything like that to me. And it would have nothng to do with me being shallow and being attracted to his money or whatever. With his money and influence he could do all kinds of shit to me, if he wanted to.

      Like

      • Jeff Strand says:

        Just curious, since you’re so hard on Trump.

        Are you familiar with Juanita Brodderick’s testimony that after Bill Clinton RAPED HER, Hillary proceeded to personally threaten her if she went to the police or went public?

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        • Donkey says:

          I am only *very* vaguely familiar with it (I’m born and bred and live in a European country and am not very familiar with the politics and the relevant testimonies and accusations etc in the USA).

          I cannot and do not presume to know what happened with Brodderick-Clinton-Clinton.

          Trumps words are on tape however. Do you acknowledge that the way you recounted what Trump said was incorrect? And that (assuming Trump’s words on the tape are true) you incorrectly laid the blame on the women, instead of on the person who groped them?

          Do you believe the people who now accuse Trump of groping/harassing them as much as you believe Brodderick?

          Like

        • Jeff Strand says:

          Donkey,

          Sorry, forgot you’re from overseas. Now I remember this was why you weren’t familiar with that previous comment I made about John Edwards and Newt Gingrich. My apologies.

          For us Americans, rest assured that for those of us who pay attention to such things there is a mountain of evidence that Bill Clinton is a serial rapist and sexual predator. When he was Arkansas governor, he used the state police to procure his victims. And Hillary then threatened some of his victims to keep quiet about the assaults. They are evil, evil people.

          As far as Trump’s locker room language, yes it was crude. But it was just talk. And exaggerated for effect. He mentioned he was attracted to a married woman (he was single at the time), he flirted with her which included taking her furniture shopping, she turned him down, and he accepted her rejection like a gentleman. What’s so terrible about that? And regarding the “grab them by the pu$$y” comment, read my prior post to understand what he was actually saying there.

          There are powerful, moneyed interests that want to destroy Trump because they can’t buy him or bribe him and he’s made it clear he’ll put the American people first. They’ll stop at nothing to smear him. Let’s hope the voters are smart enough to see through it.

          Like

          • Donkey says:

            “Sorry, forgot you’re from overseas. Now I remember this was why you weren’t familiar with that previous comment I made about John Edwards and Newt Gingrich. My apologies.”

            No reason at all to apologize for this, there are so many commenters and comments on this blog, it’s next to impossible to remember what everyone has said, where everyone is from etc. Actually, I believe it was Anita (who’s from Canada) who weren’t famliar with what you said about John Edwards nd Newt Gingrich (I wasn’t familiar with them either, but I wasn’t part of that conversation, is my point).

            “he flirted with her which included taking her furniture shopping, she turned him down, and he accepted her rejection like a gentleman. What’s so terrible about that?”

            I agree with you, there’s nothing terrible about this. Although I’m really not impressed with the behaviour of seriously going after folks who are married, no matter how well you take their rejection of you (genera you, not you specifically).

            “And regarding the “grab them by the pu$$y” comment, read my prior post to understand what he was actually saying there”

            I did read your previous comment, and my conclusion, based on what Trump actually said, is that your conclusion is mistaken. I suggest you listen to the tape again, to hear what he’s actually saying.

            Again, here’s what I said: “He talks about how he doesn’t even think, he just starts kissing women he finds beautiful (and so he should eat tick tacks first). And then he talks about how when you’re a star, they let you do anything, grab them by the p*ssy etc.” He didn’t mention anything about shallow women who throw themselves at him, he was talking about getting away with the stuff *he* wants to do (ie kissing them without thinking and therefore not seeing if they want him to kiss them or not, grabbing them by the p*ssy etc).

            Like

  16. Another great post Matt. Thank you for the read! Some of the comments from Jeff are disturbing to me… but I suppose it is to be expected when opening up a topic know to be heated. It’s worth it…keep up the awesome posts!

    Like

    • linds01 says:

      HI begentle,
      I want to apologize for the my contribution in the comments section here.
      But, I thank you for pointing our how disturbing Jeff’s comments are.
      Unfortunately they are always like that- they are not special for this particular subject.
      The comments section used to be a really great place.
      I hope that doesn’t stop you from reading and enjoying- sometimes one just must stay above the comment line… :)

      Like

  17. I actually truly enjoyed this post. I’ve had this discussion with my husband recently (as I’m sure almost every wife in America has), and I found it very difficult to wrap my head around “locker room talk” at first.

    What I got from listening to a few guys explain it was that locker room talk is what immature guys do to sound cool. It usually has zero to do with actions they would follow through on.

    That said, I’m in a rape support group on Facebook, and the “OMG I’m triggered” posts were abundant the week that video surfaced.

    I think there’s a huge difference between being a complete dick who disrespects women, and being an oversensitive woman who blames men for every inconvenience in her life. And I say that as a woman who has been raped.

    I honestly think the only true solution is for women to stop destroying all men for the actions of some, and for men to stop destroying women for the false accusations of some. It’s the attacking and bullying that really drive rape culture, not so much just “boys will be boys.”

    Anywhoo… great thoughts!

    Like

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